Project Application: Stoney Sept

Discussion in 'The Riverlands' started by Howy, May 4, 2018.

  1. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    Link here for my project application for the town of Stoney Sept. The project was approved for redo under clause 1(b) of the No-Redo Rule.
     
  2. Enah

    Enah Mother Nature and Lord in Bandallon Maester

    hey howy, so i've been somewhat uneasy with the way you've positioned the town. however, i think if you follow the way Cesky Krumlov was developed in Czech Republic, it might work well, though I'd recommend having walls around most of the town even on the river, but i like the idea of houses being the wall too. I'm not a big fan of the baroque sept, but i am in the minority on that. I very much love the houses, they fit better and feel more like the riverlands. I'd prefer the two larger stone houses be the style for the oldest areas of town and the market square, with the daub/stone smaller being elsewhere and newer. I like the Holdfast's look, though it feels a tad 19th century, but that can be tweaked later if need be. The gold bits on the fountain seem ostentatious and pointless, considering it'd get rubbed away with the rain/people touching it, also, i'd not have any exterior gilding on the sept, as gold really doesnt last long (my own statehouse has a gilded dome which had to be redone a few times the last 30 years) which btw ties back into that baroque feel to the sept, it's actually super reminiscent of that very statehouse lol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_.../media/File:West_Virginia_State_Capitol_1.jpg

    now, with the city walls, i like what you have, and i'd like that style for the newer walls, but, since i'd liek an older wall along the river too, i'd like to see another wall test that feels more like fairmarket's, in grey blocks of course. i'd also liek you to check out peasedale, there's some really cute houses attached to the septry's northside, one's the main septon's house i believe. those'd be great for the newer areas of the town! so, that's all i have for you. <3 hopefully my suggestions are taken into consideration
     
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  3. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    1. Hard to tell what the issue with positioning is (maybe more a subjective thing?). Love the town though and will take it into account when planning. It seems to be positioned on both sides of the river, if thats what you mean? I mainly chose to only position on one side since that was the thinner, more shallow side and more likely to form than across the deeper side (where in the plan there is only sprawl). Mainly didn't want to get too big, but if the house count isn't too high after planning I can put it on both sides (pending comments of others).

    2. I'd rather not have walls on the riverside of the town, as generally the Blackwater is already quite strong and would not be easy to cross. However, if it helps regarding concerns for the town's front end defenses, I would happily use the houses surrounding that area of the town as a 'wall' of sorts. There is a garrison on the southern tip, which will be fortified with a low, older wall.

    3. Ill address the overall baroque concern here. I know it was noticeable when the test was wool, but I believe the gradient has diverted away from that style, as well as the rounding of the lower tier (originally it was square). These issues were a minority concern after the aforementioned fixes occurred, so hopefully it will be okay to continue as (in my admittedly subjective and biased opinion) the sept does not look baroque or out of place.

    4. I think I will apply what you've said regarding the houses, however with the exception that the larger stone houses might be used for the 'walls' (if that makes sense?). By this I intend the houses to be effective as surrounding fortifications alongside the rough current of the river.

    5. I don't think it looks too nineteenth century but Im really okay with adjusting the holdfast later if need be. If once in place its decided it is unappealing or out of place in the town, I'd happily open it for subproject application or redo it myself (depending on the level of interest in the holdfast from other builders).

    6. I will remove the gold bits on both the fountain and the sept. They are unnecessary and likely would erode after a long period of time. Had stone tips been available I would have used those instead (but alas...).

    7. I suspect any older walls would have been torn down and used for the newer walls, or for houses. If the issue is with the wall style I can try something different. Maybe see how the current style looks in place on site? The test doesn't give off the feeling I suspect the actual walls will, as the towers are quite close together as are the turrets (which they won't be on site).

    8. I've seen Peasedale and know what you're referencing. I suspect those will strongly influence the sprawl housing. Generally with the housing inside the town I'd like to keep it larger due to the smaller space. The houses won't ofc all be the larger stone houses and will consist of the small daub/wattle housing more generally.
     
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  4. Enah

    Enah Mother Nature and Lord in Bandallon Maester

    Thanks for your reply! I am fine with what you have said, sept, ehhh, maybe, but everything else i'm ok with. Though, yes, I'd defintely like there to be walls or the remains of walls, blackwater swift or not, walls keep out damage from trebuchet and catapult as well as the floods too. But that can be worked on later if needed, easily addedaround it, lol. Ok, well on those grounds I approve. make me proud
     
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  5. While I share Enah's sentiments regarding the sept, I'm satisfied with everything else.

    Approved.
     
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  6. Arkilstorm

    Arkilstorm Dowager Countess of Grantham Maester

    Im the name of our illustrious overlord, PizzaInACup, I approve this message.
     
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  7. EStoop

    EStoop Peasant of Oldtown Builder

    I like the improvements you made compared to the plans you had when you made the redo post, great stuff. Might I suggest a couple of things though?
    • The part of the town outside of the meander, on the west side, seems to be rather dense and walled. I suggest to turn it into a large sprawl area (and do te same at the other town entrances), having the meander contain the full extend of the town. I think it would result in a more natural feel of the town, since there is no real incentitive to extend across the river rather than further into the peninsula of the meander (especially regarding defences).
    • Talking about defences, I'd have to disagree with Enah about the river walls. There is no need to over-fortify the town, especially since the threat of Ironborn raids is much less present than at other locations.
    • The walls seem to have slanted walls, which I think is alright. But the towers have stairs at the bottom of them and I am not sure what that is supposed to represent.
    • The streets in the tests you made seem to have a roadmix of dirt and gravel, with some stones mixed in. I suggest cobbled roads, since the houses in the town seem to imply a general wealth in which basic sanitation and rainwater management would be present. If you rather have dirt-gravel roads, get rid of the stones since those would just ruin the wheels of your cart, something you don't want in your market town.
    • Something else about the streets that I noticed is the amount of greenery along it. Large bushes, trees and whatnot would be an uncommon sight in the streets, apart from obviously planned/planted trees and parks or some untended corners/deadends. Depending on te type of roadmix you're going for, most plants wouldn't even be able to sprout or would be trampled by the people using the streets.
    • In some buildings, like the holdfast, the palette seems to go from weathered or uncut stone at the base to cut stone at the top. This is illogical, since most weathering would take place at the top of a structure due to rain and you would use the best stone for the base of the structure, since it has to carry the stones above it. Either have the entire structure made of solid cut stone (with some weathering on logical places, depending on the age of the building) or build the entire thing out of pebbles.
    And some things regarding the lands around Stoney Sept:
    • Wouldn't the lumbermill be located downstream of the wood or at least closer to it? Using the river as a means of transportation would be much easier, since you don't even need to have a boat.
    • What will happen to the lands east of Treepenny wood? Is it part of Stoney Sept, and if not, who will do that land? Same goes for the lands west and north of Stoney Sept, around Hollow Hill (will that be part of Hollow Hill or would that be just the caves?) and between the riverlands sept and Acorn Hall. The projects around it are all finished, and I don't think leaving it bare is an option.
    • In the terraform, the river in the Stoney Sept area will be vastly different than the rest of the river, in that the new meanders are much larger and extensive than the older parts of the river. Just something I noticed from the map and it might be something to take into account.
     
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  8. Wazgamer

    Wazgamer Lord Paramount of The Riverlands Maester

    #MakeTheRiverlandsGreatAgain
     
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  9. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    Hey Stoop, thanks for the feedback:

    1. This was to meet the description of the town's 'walls' (rather than just 'wall', singular). However I think that walls could be interpreted as a single wall, in which case I agree it may be too dense on that side of the river. I am unsure how to approach it, and would welcome your opinion on whether the description of 'walls' can refer to a single wall. I originally chose that side to expand towards as well due to the shallow nature of the river there, thereby not impeded on by the same limitations a wider river might pose (hard to explain what I mean). ((NOTE: I've realised how to make one wall plural by using different angles. I'll apply this to fix the issue))

    2. Yeah I don't intend to have river walls. As you rightfully point out the threat of ironborn invasion (or generally any 'boat' invasion) is minimal at best.

    3. The stairs represented a further slant towards the end since I wasnt happy with the abruptness of the normal slant on the larger tower scale. However, since walls are being edited to lose the gaps, I may be more okay with the slant as it will appear smoother after the next pack update.

    4. I like the idea of cobbled stone paths. I think I will apply those for the main peninsula town and have dirt/gravel for the sprawl.

    5. I will remove the shrubbery, besides yards and gardens (rich houses/sept vicinity). I may also have the occasional ivy (vines) incorporated, but I agree that it would not make sense for trees to occur especially as I will; be going with cobbled streets.

    6. Generally this weathering is less about uncut to cut stone and more just the gradient of the rock to break it up. For instance, in a different palette the use of dark cobble and small brick mixed is not just a finer cut stone with a worse cobble, its emphasizing the dark and light hue alterations that stone has. Small brick by itself would look boring, as would dark cobble. Its the same with this gradient. While I understand the point about cut stone versus uncut, I used the darker palette at the top to emphasis this. For example. I will attempt with the houses at least to indicate that the matter is for the sake of a palette rather than cut versus uncut. Builders will be able to alternate the stones as the palette is dark-light-dark and can be reversed.

    Lands:

    7. I will move the lumbermill to be further down the river, likely next to or near the bridge closest to Threepenny Wood.

    8. North. I do not think that the area between Acorn Hall and the Sept needs touching particurly. Maybe some fields for septons, but not much more. Patches of land unblemished by human hands give a wider immersion to our world. To consistently have areas (especially beyond the Reach, considered to be more densely agricultural) inhabited by humans would break the medieval immersion. I realise at our scale logically we would fill everything, as things seem smaller than they might be. However in medieval times there was uninterrupted spots of wilderness between settlements.

    East. Some of the above reasoning stands, however my original genuine thinking was that it was a part of the Crones Mill project. If I reach that area towards the end of my main set of lands, I may see to editing that area, perhaps incorporating Crones Mill with mod permission. I don't want to make unnecessary land grabs however, only to bog down an already expansive and large project. i.e. Not biting off more than I can chew (which some have suggested is already the case - I disagree, but don't want to push that point).

    Hollow Hill. It is only now I am realizing this was wiped. I had assumed it still stood, but its clearly been wiped away in a previous terraform. As far as I am aware Hollow Hill was and continues to be a solo project, and I suggest it is up to the project lead who takes those lands under their wing to incorporate them respectively. Again, I don't want to overreach. Were I to occupy all empty space surrounding Stoney Sept, the town would have lands from Hollow Hill to the God's Eye. As much as I love that idea, the practicality of it is unrealistic. I may propose a 'lands' plan for lands beyond those approved later in the project, but that will itself require further approval and is not necesarry at the present time for the reasons above.

    9. I have considered terraforming the rest of the Blackwater to the confluence at Peasedale. However, this again becomes an issue of overreach. I'd include any proposed changes further down the river in a 'lands' proposal. Until that time (which is until I feel comfortable with the progress of the current approved project) I will avoid making any such proposal. The lands warrant their own projects after all, and could do with singular attention rather than the backend of another neighbouring project.

    While writing this Waz said Make the Riverlands Great Again (MRGA?). I will I assure you, but for now that greatness will restrict itself to the approved area. :)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  10. EStoop

    EStoop Peasant of Oldtown Builder

    I didn't mean it as a "fill this area with farms and whatnot" but more as a "consider that this area needs to be taken care of". I agree we need tracts of emptyness, but the wilderness still needs to be created; the bare terraform of the map simply isn't enough to make it come alive.
     
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  11. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    I'll look into it later in the project. I likely will want to expand later anyway if I come across any particularly inspirational pics or ideas, likely opening the areas as subprojects.
     
  12. Enah

    Enah Mother Nature and Lord in Bandallon Maester

    I see my super fortress is a no go, sigh stoop you fail me!
     
  13. EStoop

    EStoop Peasant of Oldtown Builder

    Hello, after seeing Stoney Sept ingame (or the plotting/layout of it) I have a couple of things I'd like to point out.

    Terrain
    The terrain of the peninsula of Stoney Sept is rather flat, with a convenient hill for the sept. I think it would feel much more natural if the site would be terraformed as if there were no town planned. Logically, there wouldn't be small hills like the one for the sept on a rise on the inside of a meander. Most of the area is conveniently flat, like at the town square and about 50 blocks from the riverbanks.

    The town would be a lot more interesting if it actually deals with the terrain it is situated in, which is medium hills as far as I can tell.

    Layout
    The streets of the town seem to be randomly drawn. There is not much logic behind them; they do not follow the terrain (since there is a lack of geographical elements in general), follow a grid or historical expansion. Give the town a grid layout that follows the terrain and add some signs of previous walls (like wall streets), town squares, roads and alleys.

    The main square of the town is located rather far from the historical centre of the town, which would be more inwards the peninsula. There doesn't seem to be anything hinting at multiple stages of the town or expension. The main square is also very, very large and flat considering the surrounding terrain. I imagine a town like this would have a long, rectangular , almost roadlike town square rather than the square one it has now.

    The inner yards of the houses are barely connected to the roads, and seem crowded.

    Be careful not to make the streets too wide, I'd say 5-7 blocks is about as wide as a regular town road should get, minor streets being even smaller.

    Houses

    The houses in Stoney Sept are really close to eachother, sometimes even to the point they are surrounded at almost 3 sides. This will make the town look chaotic and messy. Much of the houses are also smaller than what was portrayed in the application, in which the houses were fairly large.

    The current number of houses is ca. 230, and considering the space that is still left inside the town walls I assume the end number will be at ca. 350. This is a massive amount of houses. In comparison, Fairmarket has 123 inside the town walls. The amount of work you'd have to put in to get them all build, combined with how crowdy the plotting seems, makes me to strongly advice you to cut this number to 150-200 houses inside the town walls.

    I've got no idea what the colours mean, but will there be low class, middle class and high class houses and if yes, what will the distribution of them be?

    Industry
    Where will the large industry of Stoney Sept be? Ropewalks, lumber yards, shipbuilders etc. should be present in a town this size, preferably near the water. I suggest to erode some of the peninsula away (since it's way wider than the plans anyway) and add the industry on the river banks similar to this pic of Bern in ca. 1820.

     
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  14. Enah

    Enah Mother Nature and Lord in Bandallon Maester

    I do agree on many points, as I know I've probably harped on them in game. I had few qualms with the way you proposed to do the towns, apart from the sept. But I agree that the layout is too, nonsensical. And on the too wide aspect, as I did plop some wool to show where we should narrow it at to give you those lil isles (it didnt look so large when being terraformed). Though it disappeared the next day, I'll assume it was due to working on the terra near it :3

    Stoops very right, the houses feel too urban and also tiny, there's no visible green space, and the yards you are so proud of, don't seem to exist. I don't mind urban feeling towns, as most were semi-urban or tried to be, especially large towns. But you got terraced housing it seems, every road looks the same. Even though Stoney Sept is the "larger" Riverlands town, it shouldn't feel like a city, even KL doesn't always feel like one. And again on the house size, I don't feel there's enough room inside the houses, they seem very small without any spatial restrictions apparent.

    I'll be online today and tomorrow if you wanna yell at me lol
     
  15. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    Hey Stoop thanks for the feedback (please note future feed-backers that, as Stoop has done, categorizing feedback is good - and titles great):

    Terrain:

    I agree that there can be more hilly incorporation of terrain around the town. Ill look at making the terrain more hill like for all areas, except on two points:

    1. The Sept hill. I do have a build up to the sept hill leading from the 'south' up to it, and then a sharper drop on the 'north' face. This is very purposeful, to meet canon that Arya can see the holdfast at the foot of the hill as well as above it all from a far away street. My thoughts on this in terms of town development would be that the hill was already steep but carved to and cut into to build the sept. Obviously stone would have later been brought in for the rest of the town, but the original feature (the sept) was made (in headcanon) from the rockier face of the hill. As such in this case I will keep that particular hill as is, a combination of manmade and natural steepness.

    2. The town square and the riverbanks. Both these, the square and riverbanks, would have been made flat when the streets were cobbled (as I agreed in previous fact would occur). The land has been raised to prevent flooding, hence the retaining walled riverfronts.

    Generally I am happy to make the flat area rougher in areas around the main square, adding rising and falling paths to go with the terrain. It needs to be noted that a solid amount of actual 'terraforming' in the sense of men carving and shaping areas would have occured, especially during the cobbling of the town's major roads to avoid any unecesarrily bumpy areas in which cart wheels or similar could get caught. A further note regarding the 'medium hills' of the surrounding area is that I am editing those. The whole lands are a WIP and to be edited. They will match the town's smooth hilled nature - I advise builders not to take WIP terraforming for granted (raising the point is helpful though so I can take that into account should I have forgotten to do so).

    Layout:

    I will add a wall street (approximately where a road on the west side of the main path just north of the main square cutting in a straight direction - Ill continue it along to the east side as evidence of an original wall).

    There is no terrain to follow as you mentioned. I imagine that in reterraforming the flatter areas of the town this will change. I'm not sure what you mean by grid layout, but I'm going to assume you aren't referring to the grid layouts of many modern cities (e.g. America) since that would not be historically accurate.

    The main square. It has been located very specifically to be near the sept (which would have been the focal point of the town originally), and also at the area where the main road crosses the meander (where trade would pass through). I am not happy with the idea of moving it to be more central to the peninsula when the above factors have already been taken into account and should take precedence. Regarding its size however I think you make a good point. The reason for a town square (in the more literal sense) was due to the fountain canonly being at the 'center' of the square according to Arya. I tried to juxtapose the mostly strict square shape with some odd corners and ends but it did still maintain a square design. It will help reduce the house count however so I'll look at making it rectangular (stretching 'outwards' towards the east and being shrunk 'inwards' from the north, still having the odd corners.

    I'll connect the yards in the replotting of areas and try and have much larger, longer ones in newer parts of the town (to indicate that it was originally 'sprawl' subsumed into the main town).

    Houses:

    I can spread the houses further out. Regarding the size of the house plots, I actually made them purposefully smaller because people were complaining that they were too big (and I quote, 'city-like'). I will make larger plots as I personally think thats the best way to go, with wider spacing between houses (bar the square where I will have them all adjacent). If there are disagreements with me making the plots bigger please let me know, but I think you raise a good point yourself stoop about their larger size in the application.

    The decrowding of the houses should reduce the number. My current and continuing goal is 299 houses. I agree 350 is way too much, however I believe 200 is too little. I cannot, however, control the number of houses until plotting is fully finished. Only then will I be able to make adjustments (as I can specifically predict how many will be plotted in the area). With decrowding of plotting from now on and much larger yards, this shouldn't be an issue - but I do still predict and hope for what was the original number of the town which is <299.

    High Class will be distributed around the sept area, mainly on the higher points of the hill (better view/real estate). I imagine a couple will be around the main square too. Middle Class will be the noticeably dominant house type, and I intend for low class to only occur around the lower southeast of the town where the docks will be (among warehouses, granaries, etc).

    Colours will be yellow/green for middle class (currently making up most plots as I figure out how best to occur high class without adding too many), High Class will be cyan/dark blue with light blue for adjacent towers or miscellaneous. Low class will be dark brown/light brown. There are other colours such as dark brown, grey, etc, to indicate other usages such as subprojects, walls, and special/personal (me making them) builds.

    Industry:

    I love that picture, and it reminds me of similar inspirations I've crossed in looking for good docks. I definitely want those low riverbanks for the dock area, and emulated that in the use of brown wool slabs on my mini. The plan as such has been to 'erode' a chunk of the peninsula for shoreline exactly like that and have the houses all much lower in that area. Docks will be at their location on the plan which is southeast of the peninsula. I'd love to replicate the image you shared, so if you have more pics that'd be great - just bookmarked that one!
     
  16. Hey @Howy !
    I've been looking at the terra at Stoney Sept recently, and the river is going very nicely!
    Though, I think on the part around the town, you might have done too many meanders, and too narrow.

    One advice when making meander to keep in mind is that there is a ratio of 1/6 between the width of a river and the length of the meander. Of course, there can be many variations irl, but this is an average meant to avoid having large rivers meandering too much. There can be here and there narrow meanders, but the general shape of the river shouldn't be too far from this ratio of 1/6.
    Hope this'll help you! :)
     
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  17. I did terra up the front end. I started to sand some of the area in the back of that and do some terra but then I didn't know where you were taking the river so I left it for now.
     
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  19. Howy

    Howy Thanos Maester

    I'd like to request that either of you @Elduwin or @Andy_Jones help me fix the meander or at least plot the river in such a way it isnt against .... fluvial processes.
     
  20. Enah

    Enah Mother Nature and Lord in Bandallon Maester

    Just do as you had originally planned, before the meanders. A decently wide yet narrow river similar to the aare river in bern. Bringing the hills on the opposite shore should help too with how wide it is.
     
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